Thanks for your feedback Jens,<br><br>re: "1. we talk to them and tell them our concerns"<br>as Hauke already
suggested, they do not know how to help and they want to figure that out.<br>Maybe rather than listing concerns we can take the lead a bit and actually just flatly drop their previous
proposal as not working and suggest an entirely new one: <br><br>I think after reading everything... in fact / come to think of it, if
this group would instead of offering money and such restrictions just
even send like one PGP / GPG expert to a party to volunteer and
participate as an informed / expert "guest" just like any other guest
then this would be 100x more useful and entirely constructive to their aims to teach people crypto.<br><br>Proposal 1. Organise, wherever possible to send volunteers to take part in a non-official capacity. I.e. not giving speeches about TT, not advertising anything. Do the good work without
corporatising our volunteer / decentralised movement which has, until now, just been about the crypto / content. More people learn
crypto. Everyone wins.<br><br>re: "2. make a short notice on the website
which says "you can get money from TT under this conditions" and "we
don't support this because …"<br><br>I am personally really uncomfortable with this proposal and I feel it is a bad idea to advertise that offer on our site
especially seeing as we are still discussing the terms and the nature of such assistance and money will, given the feedback so far, not be how we end up receiving help from these guys... <br><br>Just FWIW I notice you did not mention the bit where I was talking about why we would even need money in the first
place and how this might complicate things? I think this is a key argument in this whole discussion:<br><br>Why would we trade *any* autonomy and/or reveal information about our network for some beer money? This is just not smart.<br>
So just to echo what I said before:<br><br>Maybe they are nice guys that want to inform and protect the public?<br>
Or maybe they want to push certain agendas, co-opt and then destroy<br>
the movement?<br>
<br>
I am not sure which they are... but for the price of a few beers, I do<br>
not want to find out.<br>
<br>
*Self-Funding*<br>
Subsidizing drinks might sound like "free as in free beer" but to be<br>
honest, would you rather not just spend 10 euros on something from the<br>
supermarket and run an free-range / independent event?<br>
<br>
If you *must* get back this cost then there is a very simple solution,<br>
a little donation box:<br>
<a href="https://openclipart.org/image/800px/svg_to_png/126853/donation.png" target="_blank">https://openclipart.org/image/800px/svg_to_png/126853/donation.png</a><br>
<br>
Also, if a speaker had to travel a long way then the donation box<br>
system can be a nice way to make that work for them.<br>
<br>
*Crowd Funding?*<br>
If we need money so bad for 'drinks' and maybe for domain names and<br>
server hosting and so on then why not just crowdfund that? We have a<br>
large support base...<br>
<br>
- -Well then we would need a bank account.<br>
- -Therefore we are more centralized.<br>
- -Therefore we need a process to approve spending.<br>
- -Therefore we argue about money and profit.<br>
...IMHO Life gets worse not better.<br>
<br>
To conclude, we state in our own literature that we are<br>
non-commercially aligned and do not sellout to such free pizza + beer<br>
offers and what I have outlined about is precisely the reason why we<br>
must be careful when considering what is offered and what is asked for<br>
in return. So let's consider defering to the collective wisdom of our<br>
global movement and keep CryptoParty free and DIY!<br><br>samthetechie<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 18 July 2013 08:29, Jens Kubieziel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:maillist@kubieziel.de" target="_blank">maillist@kubieziel.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">* Samuel Carlisle schrieb am 2013-07-18 um 01:05 Uhr:<br>
> Asks<br>
> ====<br>
<div>> -give us your hacker / crypto contacts all over Germany.<br>
<br>
</div>Only the last sentence asks for a contact. As far as I understand it<br>
they want a contact address of a person or legal entity who organises<br>
the CryptoParty. So if we want to support it I would suggest that we<br>
don't give them any contacts. When someone is interest in getting in<br>
touch with TeleTrusT we give this person the contact of TeleTrusT. This<br>
is the better way in my opinion.<br>
<div><br>
> -we will take over accounts (??? does this mean pay for things or to<br>
> *do* our finances, the translation is not clear to me).<br>
<br>
</div>What they are saying here that they will pay for real costs. So if<br>
someone has to rent a room, pay for food and beverages, TeleTrusT will<br>
cover those costs.<br>
<div><br>
> -your events may not have any political affiliations.<br>
<br>
</div>Not an affilitaion with a special party. In September are elections in<br>
Germany and some parties misuse such events to make campaining. I think<br>
they want to exclude this here.<br>
<div><br>
> Not to mention that there is also a veiled encouragement to get us to<br>
> be able to make "proper invoices" which I assume in German, like UK,<br>
> law mean that we have to become a legal body.<br>
<br>
</div>Speaking for Germany, many hackspaces are legal bodies (Verein) here and<br>
so are able to issue invoices.<br>
<div><br>
> Maybe they are nice guys that want to inform and protect the public?<br>
> Or maybe they want to push certain agendas, co-opt and then destroy<br>
> the movement?<br>
<br>
</div>Their agenda seems to support encryption for public use. In a sentence<br>
which you didn't translate they wrote that they want to support "mail<br>
encryption" in a way that everyone uses it.<br>
<br>
I would suggest that<br>
1. we talk to them and tell them our concerns<br>
2. make a short notice on the website which says "you can get money from<br>
TT under this conditions" and "we don't support this because …"<br>
So others which want to do a CryptoParty can evluate for themselves if<br>
they think it is a good idea or not.<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Jens Kubieziel <a href="http://www.kubieziel.de" target="_blank">http://www.kubieziel.de</a><br>
</font></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Samuel Carlisle BEng (Hons) Dunelm MIET<br>pgp: 0x54828CAA<br>Fingerprint: 9E01 D8A4 CFEB ED72 B0D2 70D7 1D57 A297 5482 8CAA<br><div>twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/#!/samthetechie" target="_blank">@samthetechie</a><br>
</div>