[CryptoParty] Summing up Twitter conversations about TeleTrust Sponsorship

fukami f at foo.io
Fri Jul 19 00:04:56 GMT 2013


Hi!

On 19.07.2013, at 00:29, Hauke Laging <hauke.laging at openpgp-schulungen.de> wrote:
> Am Do 18.07.2013, 23:54:19 schrieb Samuel Carlisle:
>> I think it is abundantly clear that TeleTrust are associated with
>> Microsoft, RIM, BND, (and the list only gets worse... feel free to dig
>> more) so these guys are *not* really friends of Cryptoparty- read some
>> of the comments and guidance coming from twitter:
> 
> I don't get the point. SELinux is from the NSA. Where are the people who 
> refuse to use it for that reason, how many are they? I do not think they are 
> interested in that but even if US and UK government decided to spend money for 
> supporting Cryptoparties it would IMHO be stupid not to take it. The value of 
> money is a question of its target not of its source. Assessing the source is 
> political debate. I just read on this list that the Cryptoparty community 
> should stay away from political debate.

Right, you don't get the point! A grassroots movement which exists because of 
companies and government spy on peoples private live shouldn't go in bed with 
those doing exactly that. To take money from this entities and let them
show how support they are seems more than only a little weird to me. The OP
had a different mail than I have. That one said (in German):

[...]
3. Es sollte sich nicht in der Hauptsache um eine OpenSource-Werbeveranstaltung 
handeln (dies ist allerdings keine Wertung der OpenSource-Idee).
[...]

What do you think does it means in terms of an event which basically deals with
OSS for the masses? To me it's so clear that it doesn't even need a further
discussion. I agree with Sam: When they want to help, let them pay for development
of Free and Open Source Software solutions such as GPG, OTR, Tor etc. 

Cryptoparties are politics, and the whole question from where to take money
or not is essential and a question of ethics.

Look at DefCon: After they had Alexander last year and were open for 
recruitment they clearly said they don't want to have LI at their event 
(the CCC doesn't have this problem, since it was never open for such access 
from companies to the audience at their events). 

> Assume the BND itself would teach the public about crypto. Would that be good 
> or bad? Or is it possible that this depends on what exactly they would teach 
> and what not (like with every Cryptoparty)?

It would be bad, since secret services lie. There might try to make friends 
with you but at the end it's important for them to get some people to say
"oh, these guys are cool". Secret services are no partners AT ALL for a 
civil society - they are at war (which is the main issue of the whole
scandal). That's the main difference between them and us: We are at peace,
we protect civil society against war mongers (think the whole "cyberwar"
bullshit). But they attack civil infrastructure, planting backdoors,
gaining access to vital civil systems for infitration. 

>> @qbi @samthetechie If TeleTrusT wants to make something useful they
>> should do some funding of crypto OSS (i.e. by paying Werner or others)
> 
> So who can explain to me why and how the Cryptoparty idea (or single events) 
> could be damaged by support with the "wrong" money BUT GnuPG couldn't? Is 
> Werner a morally higher person than us? Can we be bought but he can't? Or is 
> he more clever than us so that he would realize that someone tries to buy him 
> but we wouldn't? I am not going to think that low on myself.

No, the difference is that you don't need no money for doing a Cryptoparty,
but you need money to get good crypto software. I don't say that every company
at TeleTrust is bad (there is for example eco and others), but that's not the
point. The point is, that they like to have their name associated with this
kind of events to sell closed source soft- and hardware and to silence the voice
for open systems. They try to regulate how this event is going to be and what to 
discuss. But funding someone to develop a piece of software for the masses is 
different (they wouldn't do this anyways, since it spoils their business, so 
we don't need to discuss this really).

>> The conclusion seems to be that TeleTrust can not be involved at the
>> parties to sponse any drinks or have adverts or anything
> 
> The first thing I added to the discussion was that I think spending money for 
> drinks is a bad idea anyway. I don't think that the events themselves have a 
> money problem at all. This is even more true now that Cryptoparty is a 
> recognized label.

So what? What to take the money for? I don't get it! 

>> could indirectly (and very very effectively) support #cryptoparty by
>> simply donating to OTR: http://www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/donate.php
>> GNUpg: http://www.gnupg.org/misc/donations.en.html … Tor:
>> https://www.torproject.org/donate/donate
> 
> Sure they could. But to my knowledge none of these projects is in a phase of 
> unclear success whereas I hear statements like "In two months the Cryptoparty 
> hype can be over".

Again: So what? We all know we need better software, and we need it free and
open. This might be a hype (well, it is), but the basic principle hasn't  
change since the Cypherpunks. We need places to meet, to learn and to
understand what is missing so we can work on it. We don't need someone
selling products or have a name written somewhere.

> For all I know the amount of money they can spend is limited anyway. So the 
> practical solution is: Those who believe that money from a disliked source 
> should be avoided simply avoid it. Don't ask for it and refuse it if offered.
> 
> But if you want to criticize others for behaving differently then I would 
> strongly demand something that looks like an argument instead of pure emotion.

Well, I for my side will make it a topic if this happens. It's the same why 
I criticize Gamma and such and all people working for them. There is no need
to get companies involved. They don't do it for good, they do it for their
reputation and business. But I guess people taking this money will loose their 
reputation sooner or later anyways. 


Cheers,
  fukami






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